A ladies' day excursion, location unknown

I've posted this carte de visite as a comparison with the cabinet card of a mens' excursion near West Hartlepool that I used a few days ago. Unfortunately this one has no photographer's name or location on the card mount, so I have no idea where it was taken.


There are fifteen people in the photo, all female, ranging in age from two children about eight years old to a couple of middle-aged women, perhaps in their fifties. Because of the variety in ages, it is difficult to know whether it is some type of extended family group, e.g. grandmothers, mothers and grandchildren, or whether they are unrelated. There are no clear family resemblances evident.

As with the previous photograph of a excursion, little attempt has been made to arrange the members of the group in a formal pattern, and it would have been difficult anyway, considering the irregular jumble of rocks on which they are sitting. I estimate from their clothing, hairstyles and hats that the photograph was taken in the late 1870s or early 1880s, perhaps between 1878 and 1884.

"Please, sir, I want some more."

This unusual cabinet photograph was taken by A.W. Cox of 11 St James' Street, Nottingham, and he was sufficiently proud of it to have registered it, for copyright purposes.


Unfortunately, there is no indication of where it was taken, or who the subjects are. It seems likely that it was intended to evoke images of Charles Dickens' Oliver Twist, in particular the scene where Oliver asks, "Please, sir, I want some more," as shown in the original engraving by George Cruickshank for the serial published in Bentley's Miscellany between February 1837 and April 1839. [Courtesy of Wikipedia].


"Please, sir, I want some more."
Illustration by George Cruikshank for Oliver Twist by Charles Dickens
Image courtesy of Wikipedia
I purchased the cabinet card because my own gg-grandfather Henry Payne (1843-1907) spent several years of his childhood, from the age of seven until he was fourteen, in the Ashby Union Workhouse. In fact his mother Ann Payne, who was widowed when Henry was only two, and suffered from epilepsy, died there in 1857. Although most likely to have been from the area around Nottingham, I thought that it might give a good impression of what Henry and his mother might have experienced.

However, it is not at all certain that the scene is in a workhouse. I estimate that there are between forty and fifty seated at the right-hand bench which is completely visible, and it is likely that there is a similar number of boys and girls at the left-hand table. There are about nineteen adults standing around the edge of the room, supervising what must be between sixty and a hundred children. The clothing worn by the women is not very clear, but I estimate that it was from some time in the 1880s.


The Workhouse, Southwell, a restored 19th Century workhouse run by the National Trust
I sent the image to staff at the Southwell Workhouse, situated not far from Nottingham, which is run by the National Trust and is one of the best preserved Victorian workhouses in England. Philip Jones, volunteer researcher, does not think it likely that it was at Southwell, and has suggested that it could be either the Nottingham Union Workhouse or a childrens' home in Nottingham, such as the Gordon Boys Home. Further enquiries at the Nottingham Local Studies Library are under way.

The photographer Alfred William Cox (1830-1888) was born in Nottingham and by the early 1850s was working there as an artist, also making picture frames and selling prints and artist's supplies. He opened a photographic studio at Brewill's Yard, Nottinghma with Sylvanus Redgate in 1856. Although the partnership did not last long, Cox's business continued to thrive, and he moved to new premises in St. James' Street in 1863. Heathcote and Heathcote (in Pioneers of Photography in Nottinghamshire 1841-1910, published by Nottinghamshire County Council, ISBN 0 902751 38 7) say that, "The standard of work produced by this studio was of excellent quality and the business enjoyed a first-class reputation." In 1876, however, Alfred Cox moved away from Nottingham and his wife Ellen Elizabeth (1832-1910) took over the business. Mrs. Cox continued to run the studio at this address with her sons Alfred and Henry William, and daughters Ellen Louisa and Mabel Maud until 1897.

If my date estimate of the 1880s for this photograph is correct, then it appears more likely to have been taken by Mrs Cox or one of her children.

A gentlemen's day excursion near West Hartlepool, c.1890

The groups for which the cabinet card portrait was ideally suited did not have to be family groups, of course. I have come across many other types of groups, and hope to present some of these here in the coming weeks.


This group of twenty-three men are on an excursion somewhere, presumably somewhere near West Hartlepool (Durham), as that is where the photographer is from. Roughly half of them are bearded, and most of the remainder have moustaches and sideburns or Dundreary whiskers - only one young man, possibly in his mid-twenties clearly has neither. Many have bowler or homburg hats, although they have taken them off for the portrait. One has an umbrella and at least a couple have walking sticks.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with Durham and the area around West Hartlepool at all, so I can't begin to suggest where it might be located. However, it may be that the cliff backdrop to the photograph immediately suggests a spot to someone with local knowledge - if so, I'd be pleased to hear from you (Email). I think it was taken in the late 1880s or early 1890s but, as I'm not particularly adept at dating men's clothing fashions, I'm quite likely to be out by a few years either way.


The photographer Robert Leithead was primarily a chemist, druggist and proprietor of a hairdresser's salon, who appears to have carried on the photography as a sideline, perhaps only briefly, styling himself as "Lew." An 1890 trade directory (Kelly's Directory of Durham, courtesy of the University of Leicester's Historical Directories) shows him with a chemist's shop at 58 Milton Street, and a hairdressing shop in Murray Street, both in West Hartlepool. The 1891 Census suggests that he was also a wine merchant and photographer, and that his fifteen year-old daughter Isabella was working in the hairdresser's as a "shop woman."

Post Script
Photo-Sleuth reader and contributer Nigel Aspdin has come up with a possible location for this photograph.

Maybe it could be High Force Waterfalls, which is further inland up the Tees, but it would be a day out trip from West Hartlepool. The Tees goes through Co Durham and exits into the North Sea at Hartlepool. We were there a few years ago but for some reason I have no photos of the falls, just [a photo outside the pub] at the top of the long path back up to the car park! If it was High Force, and I do think it quite likely, then I am sure your men had a pint or two at the same pub.

According to a Wikipedia article High Force is a waterfall on the River Tees, near Middleton-in-Teesdale, and was formed where the river crosses the Whin Sill: "The waterfall itself consists of two different types of rock. The upper band is made up of whinstone, a hard rock which the waterfall takes a lot of time to erode. The lower section is made up of carboniferous limestone, a softer rock which is more easily worn away by the waterfall. The wearing away of rock means that the waterfall is slowly moving upstream, leaving a narrow, deep gorge in front of it."


High Force waterfall, near Middleton-in-Teesdale, Tees Valley
Image courtesy of Wikipedia & Adrian Barnett/StoatBringer
Modern photos of High Force, such as this collection from Pictures of England, do show rock faces which are very similar to that in the background of Leithead's group portrait. It may even have been taken close to the lower right of this recent photo by Ben Gamble.


The spot is also shown on this satellite image from GoogleMaps:


View Larger Map
Ian West shows that the site is of some interest to geologists on his web site devoted to the Geology of Great Britain, hosted by the University of Southampton. It occurred to me that the group might be engaged on a geological excursion, but I think this is unlikely, as none are carrying hammers of any sort. A geological map of Durham on the same site shows that magnesian limestones outcrop for some distance to the north, west and south-west of West Hartlepool. Nigel and I are both of the opinion that the rocky outcrop in the background of the Leithead photo is probably composed of some kind of limestone. If this is the case, then it is still possible for the location to be closer to West Hartlepool than High Force, which has a dolerite sill overlying limestones and indurated shales, as shown in the portion of the geological map below.

The Boys' Day Out

Kevin Rhodes recently sent me a set of three rather charming postcard photographs featuring a couple of family members. Although there is no photographer's imprint, and the photographs have been printed on a fairly standard generic design of card, it is likely that they were taken somewhere in or near Derby - Kevin suggests around 1910.


Samuel Arthur Rankin (the slighter of the two young men in the left hand portrait shown above) was born at Derby in 1888, a middle son of telegraph mechanic, and former brass finisher, Frederick Rankin and his wife Agnes née Porter. The other man, who features in all three photos, is probably a brother and most likely Percy, who was four years older than Sam. Their parents were originally from the Braintree area of Essex, but moved from Bocking to Derby in about 1892, shortly after their marriage and the birth of their first child Henry Frederick (c. Nov 1881). They lived in Peartreet Street, Litchurch, which was where Samuel and his brothers and sisters grew up. Sam's younger sister Frances Rankin featured in a postcard portrait by Pollard Graham, which was the subject of an earlier post on Photo-Sleuth, "Mending Day in Arboretum Square."

Samuel emigrated to Australia some time before the First World War, and settled in Adelaide. Kevin has photos of him taken both in Adelaide and Melbourne. Mr & Mrs Sam Rankin, in Australia, are reported to have sent flowers to the funeral of his parents, which took place on April 23rd 1916. He also "has a valedictory letter sent by Sam from Adelaide to all the family towards the end of his life regretting that he will never be able to afford the boat or 'new' airways to see his family before he died, and remembering his Father seeing him of on the boat at Tilbury Docks. There is a family story that he arrived in Adelaide just before some big celebration (Centenary, Royal Visit ?) and as an electrician immediately found work hanging electric light bulbs along the streets. I have been unable to tie this to any actual event and likewise I've been unable to spot any sign of War service in the First War."

The third photograph in the series has a much less formal character, and clearly betrays the real purpose of the day's excursion.


I have two confining dates for this series of postcards, based on the design on the reverse:
- The divided back shows that it was post-1902, as prior to this date no message was permitted to be written on the address side
- The internal postal rates for postcards increased from a half-penny to one penny on 3 June 1918.


I found a possible departure for Melbourne, Australia of a Samuel RANKIN born c. 1888 from London in 1915. There was another Sam RANKIN (age unspecified) who departed for Sydney (Australia) from London in 1909. These were from "Passenger Lists Leaving UK 1890-1960" a database on Findmypast.com - unfortunately, without a subscription to this database, you may only view the index, and must pay to see the actual records.

Samuel Rankin looks to be somewhere between 18 and 25 in the photos, perhaps towards the lower end of that range. If he was born in late 1887/early 1888, then the photo could have been any time between 1906 and 1913, and I suspect it is more likely to have been during the period 1906-1910.

Kevin notes, "I am pretty sure by their staged nature that they are done by a professional, but I think the over printing on [the group photo] is very amateurish." As Kevin suggests, I believe the series of photos to have been taken by an itinerant, or travelling, photographer, rather than an amateur. The two vertical portraits of the Rankin brothers appear to have been posed against a rather rough stone wall, and in the single portrait of Sam's brother, there seem to be some scraps of arbitrary foliage draped over the wall. However, the telling feature is that in both of these, the same painted backdrop has been used. It is a simple one, but not the sort of photographic accessory an amateur would normally have had access to.

The printing on the group photo does, I agree, appear a little amateurish. However, many postcard photos of this era had words written by hand onto (or scratched into) the negative. If they were written in Indian Ink they would appear white on the print, and if they were scratched onto the negative, they would appear black. I'm not sure about this one, but I suspect that it was some kind of stencil - perhaps an early version of "Lettraset." It is unfortunate that the photographer/printer/studio got the title "The Boys Day Out" upside down - my guess is that it was a mistake rather than intentional - but I think it just adds to the fun of the occasion. It reminds me of a postcard format photograph from my own family collection, of a similar vintage and in much the same vein.


My great-grandfather Charles Vincent Payne (1868-1941) is standing in the back row, second from the right, but I have no idea who any of the other people are. Charlie, as he was known, was a talented singer, and it may be that the "Ding Dongs" were a singing group of which he was a some time member. However, the occasion of the group portrait was more likely to have been a festivity of a more liquid nature. Two of the men are clutching quart bottles of, presumably, ale or porter, and a third has a large mug on his lap, into which a fourth appears to pouring something from a jug. Several have cigarettes or pipes in their mouths, and most look decidedly "jolly."

The only one decidely not having a good time is the lone woman seated in the centre, who is either concerned that she is about to be doused with beer, or wondering how on earth to extricate herself ... or both! The porter or busboy standing on the left of the group, judging by his broad grin, has no such qualms - he has what appears to be "Bell Hotel" on his cap, so presumably they are at a hotel. Unfortunately, the reverse of the postcard shows no indication of where it was taken. It could be Derby, where Charlie Payne lived in the 1900s and 1910s, but it could just as easily be further afield, as I have many photos of him in holiday spots around the country.

Kelly's 1912 Directory of Derbyshire lists a Bell Hotel (family & commercial, Prop. Frank H. Phillips) at 52-53 Sadler Gate, Derby, and it is tempting to assume that it was the venue for their "boy's day out." The Bell Hotel still operates on this site, having been built in the late 17th Century. Andy Savage has a recent photo of the exterior of the Bell Hotel on his web site, DerbyPhotos. Apparently the fake Tudor framing (or half-timbering) was added to both the facade and the walls of the internal yard after the First World War.

I wonder if anyone can shed some light on the "Ding Dongs," please?

P.S. Nigel Aspdin very kindly paid a visit to the Old Bell Hotel in Sadler Gate today, and thinks it is very likely that the "Ding Dongs" had their group photo taken in the yard at the back. The large windows appear to have been completely replaced with smaller ones, and the framing and plastering is, of course, new.


Internal Yard of The Old Bell Hotel, Sadler Gate, Derby
© April 2008 Nigel Aspdin
The satellite images provided by Google Maps also give a very good bird's eye view of the yard behind the Old Bell Hotel.


View Larger Map
I wonder if there are any other pre-WW1 photographs or other pictures of the Bell Hotel, with which we might be able compare these?

Charles Warwick, Fairground photographer

Pat Blackwell recently sent me scans of a couple of entertaining photographs of James Loudon (1863-1931), her husband's grandfather, taken in Derby by travelling photographer Charles Warwick. The first carte de visite shows James (standing) with two friends, dressed in cricketing gear, and prominently displaying two bats and a ball.


The other cdv appears to have been cut or trimmed from a group portrait, and is an outdoor portrait showing James posing in football gear, complete with football. The elbow of one of his team mates is just visible to his left.


Pat provides the following background information on the subject:

"He was born 1863 in Kilmarnock but by 1881 was living in Mansfield Woodhouse, Notts, where he stayed until his death in 1931. He worked for the Duke of Portland all of this time on the Welbeck estate as a clerk and then cashier. From his obituary it states about his cricket 'he played consistently some 40 years ago for Mansfield Woodhouse and the Welbeck tenants.' This would point to him playing cricket in 1891 or thereabouts. My husband believes that [James] played [football] for Notts County as an amateur but we have no proof of that at present. We assume that it would have been about 1883."

It seems very likely to me that James Loudon and his fellow team members had their portraits taken by Charles Warwick on the occasion of a match (or matches) against a team(s) in Derby. The cricket and football photos may have been taken on the same day, but just easily they could have been some days, weeks or months apart. Although the reverse of both cartes state, "from London Road, Derby," I suspect that Warwick operated from a booth or something similar on London Road, as I've not found any evidence that he ever had a permanent studio in Derby. As is common with many travelling photographers, Warwick did not have purpose printed card mounts, but used blank ones, and merely hand-stamped his details onto the reverse. I estimate that the photographs were taken in the late 1880s or early 1890s, which fits well with your statement that he played around 1891. A few years later Warwick did have some card mounts printed for him, as shown by the example in my profile of Charles Warwick and his father, also named Charles.

In early April 1891, Charles Warwick junior was living with his Harriet née Sketchley, a son and a daughter, in a caravan on the Morledge, Derby. Nearby, and living in another caravan, were his younger brother and sister Arthur and Emma, also described as a photographers, and presumably assisting Charles. Examination of the relevant enumerator's schedules using Ancestry's subscription-based census image collection shows a miscellany of fairground people staying on the Morledge:

- Abraham Smith, cocoa nut bowling proprietor
- William Brickstock, proprietor of roundabout horses
- Emma and Charles Sketchley, shooting gallery proprietor (Charles Warwick's mother-in-law and brother-in-law)
- Henry Gaunt, travelling showman
- James Adkin, stall keeper (confectionery)
- Arthur Ashmore, shooting saloon proprietor
- Albert Hall, travelling rifle saloon
- Thomas Twigdon, proprietor of roundabouts (horses)
- William Howell, proprietor shooting saloon
- Thomas Richards, standing engine driver
- Joseph Cox, proprietor of roundabouts (horses)
- Alfred Twigdon, proprietor of switchback
- George Twigdon, proprietor of "Sea on Land"
- Peter, Thomas & Abraham Jerrison, proprietors of swingboats
- Amos Towle, riding donkey proprietor
- John & Frederick Smith, horse dealers
- Ellen Davis, proprietor of roundabouts (horses)
- Charles Tyler, photographer
- Samuel Whiting, swing boat proprietor
- Robert Odeley, cocoa nut bowling street
- John Monk, swing boat proprietor
- George Ware, horse dealer
- Lewis Shaw, proprietor cocoa nut bowling street
- William Hall, confectionery stall proprietor
- Edwin Morris, proprietor of confectionery stall
- Charles Antill, photographer
- Barton Lineker, travelling confectioner
- Frederick Pemberton, proprietor shooting saloon
- John Parker, showman (ghost show)

Coincidentally, a look at the September 2006 satellite images of the Morledge, Derby on Google Maps shows a fairground on the nearby Bass Recreation Ground, over a century later:


View Larger Map
A short distance away, to the north-west is a cricket oval - you can see this by zooming out and then back in, or panning to the NW - and a team can be seen playing on the ground. It is tempting to assume that John Loudon played cricket as a member of a visiting team on that same ground, and after the match, he and his friends visited Charles Warwick's booth in London Road. Alternatively, perhaps Warwick took his van to the cricket oval, to take advantage of the potential customers among the crowds who would have been watching the match.

Artist C.T. Moore captured the lively scene of the fairground and market at the Morledge in early 1882, in a painting - kindly brought to my attention by Nigel Aspdin - aptly titled "Fair Day in Morledge" which was exhibited at Richard Keene's "7th Spring Exhibition of Modern Pictures," reported in The Derby Mercury on 21 May that year.


Fair Day in Morledge, 1882, by C.T. Moore
This painting was subsequently purchased by arts patron Alfred E. Goodey, and later became part of the Goodey Collection donated to the Derby Council Art Gallery in 1936. It was one of a series of pictures from this collection published by the Derby Museum & Art Gallery under the title, "Goodey's Derby," in 2003 (Breedon Books, ISBN 1 85983 379 9), and an image of the painting also appears on Picture the Past. It nicely conveys the bustling atmosphere of the annual Easter Fair, to which many travelling showmen from across the Midlands, including itinerant photographers, would congregate ... (continued in Part II)

P.S. Pat subsequently sent me the following:

As far as we know James Loudon won these awards for his performances at Mansfield Woodhouse cricket club, Nottinghamshire:
1885 Highest batting average
1888 Batting and bowling average
1889 Best Bowling average
1889 Best Batting average
1890 Best batting average
1891 Best batting average
1893 Best Average
1893 Highest score
1895 Bowling average

He also won one for Welbeck Tenants Cricket club:
1896 For highest batting average and acting as secretary for a number of years.

Three of the awards are mounted on old cricket balls but the others are not, although they have obviously been mounted on something in the past.

Working at the big house

Following a previous posting which dealt, in part, with the uniforms worn by domestic servants in Victorian and Edwardian times, I recently came aross the following two cabinet cards. The first shows a fairly standard group portrait of half a dozen domestic servants, taken outdoors against an ivy coloured wall.


The photographer does not appear to have been particularly skilled, as little care was taken with the group's arrangement, and the bright whites of the maids' pinnies have resulted in a rather washed out appearance in the photo. The second photo of the pair is rather more interesting, as each of the young women, seated in a slightly different order, now carries the various tools of their trade.


They are, from left to right, a pestle and mortar,


... a watering can,


... a cooking pot,


... a salver, possibly with a note on,


... sewing,


... and another watering can.


These serve to illustrate a range of household duties, from growing vegetables in the kitchen garden to preparing and cooking food, running errands for the master and madam around the house, and mending clothes. There appears to be only slight variation in the uniforms worn, and this may have more to do with their age than their individual duties. The girl in the centre holding a pot, who appears to be younger than the others, has a light coloured dress, while the others' dresses are all dark.


The stamp on the reverse of the cabinet card, shown above, identifies the photographer as Samuel Whitbread of West Street in Havant, a small town in Hampshire, not far from Portsmouth. Although originally a baker, Whitbread turned his hand to photography in the late 1880s. The family lived in West Street, but moved to 20 South street prior to April 1891, suggesting a latest date for this sitting of early 1891.

The sleeves of the womens' dresses are also appropriate for between 1889 and 1891, with the first appearance of the fashionable puffed sleeves so characteristic of the 1890s being worn by the younger women,


... while the older woman, seated at front left in the lower photo, has the rounded-shoulder sleeves more fashionable in the 1880s.



If it was taken c. 1890-1891, this was possibly taken during the early part of Whitbread's photographic career, which would explain the amateurish poses and exposure. He remained in business for at least another decade, so presumably he did get better at his job.

The chances of identifying any of the female servants in the photo, or the location at which it was taken, are slim. However, it may be worth noting that the 1891 Census shows one of Whitbread's daughters - Laura Alice, aged 19 - working as a cook, presumably for a wealthy resident in the town of Havant, and it is remotely possible that she is one of those pictured.

A Day Out With The Lads Skating in Matlock Bath

Visits to the photographic studio in the latter part of the nineteenth century were usually rather formal affairs. Many comments are made about the sombre expressions on the sitters' faces. However, one does occasionally come across a photo in which a little more frivolity can be detected.


This photo shows a group of five young men who, although they do have the regulation expressions, are arranged in a much more relaxed manner than is usual. One of the men, leaning over a "wall" with what appears to be a clay pipe in his hand, has his hat set at a slightly rakish angle. Another - perhaps the youngest of the gang - is seated on the floor and has his legs half crossed. They even have a dog with them, although they must have had a job keeping it still for long enough to show in the photo.

The clue to the activity in which they are about to engage, or have just engaged in, is not in the photo itself or an inscription - as the carte de visite is sadly lacking in any identification of the subjects - but in the details of the photographer and his studio. The text and design on the reverse of the card mount indicates it was taken by William Godber, an "artist and photographer of views, groups & mansions ... on moderate terms," at The Rink Studio, Matlock Bath.

The Skating Rink in Matlock Bath appears to have operated for only a few years in the late 1880s and early 1890s, although there is a suggestion from an entry in the London Gazette that it had been in existence prior to 1877. Kelly's 1887 trade directory shows F.E. Leggoe as proprietor, while the 1891 edition of the same publication indicates that William B. Hunt had taken it over. I have not been able to discover anything more about the Matlock Skating Rink, but by April 1891, Godber had moved to Litchurch near Derby, so presumably this photograph was taken before then.

I have not yet come across any other photographs by William Godber, but census records indicate that he was working in this field as early as 1881 (in Hammersmith, London) and as late as 1901 (Carlton, Nottinghamshire).

The carte de visite shown below was included in the same batch, and appears to show a close up portrait of the same young man who is standing at left in the group portrait. He appears to be wearing a different jacket and shirt collar, so it was probably taken on a separate occasion.

Tennyson's "Dream of Fair Women"

I purchased this postcard photo some time ago on eBay because it is from the studio of Frederick J. Boyes (of 22 & 24 Osmaston Road, Derby). However, it is also of interest for the reason that it is from a rather different genre from the usual contributions that I receive. It is a standard postcard format picture. The reverse is of a very ordinary design, with no studio name printed; as was common with Boyes' later postcard portraits, the studio name and details are blind stamped onto the lower right hand corner of the front of the card.


Tennyson's "Dream of Fair Women"
It is inscribed in pen on the reverse, "Tennyson's 'Dream of Fair Women'" - nothing else. I wasn't familiar with this poem, but the full text may be found here. It was an early poem written by Tennyson in 1833, but it was strongly criticized by reviewers, and "made little impression on the Victorian public which had lost its taste for poetry and was devoted mainly to prose fiction." [Source: Modern English Books of Power, by G.H. Fitch, 1912] Millais provided an illustration for an 1857 publication of the work:


Illustration for Tennyson's "A Dream of Fair Women", by John Everett Millais, 1857, engraved by W.J. Linton
The popularity of the work appears to have undergone something of a revival in the Edwardian era. The art noveaux period brought this work in the romantic genre by Emma Florence Harrison, probably from shortly before the Great War. A film of that name was also produced in 1920


"A Dream of Fair Women", by British artist Emma Florence Harrison
Unfortunately, the identity of the cast members of this performance of "A Dream of Fair Women" has not been preserved along with the photo. As I purchased it on eBay, the provenance is also lost. However, there must, somewhere, be records of the poem-play being performed in Derby. I presume it was in Derby, as Boyes was unlikely to have travelled very far afield. It looks as though it has been taken in a suburban garden, but there are few clues as to where. My guess is that it dates from between 1905 and 1925, but it's difficult to be more accurate than that, because the costumes are, after all, costumes.

Perhaps there is a reader out there who can offer some more insights into when and where the performance may have taken place, and who the actors were?